Mary Peizner

Frankel: Good afternoon. I will begin by asking you to give me your name, place and date of birth.
PEIZNER: It’s Mary Peizner. Place: Portland, Oregon. Do you want the dates?

Frankel: Yes.
PEIZNER: January 4, 1930.

Frankel: And your maiden name?
PEIZNER: Babbani.

Frankel: Tell me about your household growing up. Who were the members of that family?
PEIZNER: There were six of us, four girls and my mother and father.

Frankel: Names?
PEIZNER: My oldest sister Jean, my sister Joy, and Lee, and then myself. My father’s name was Ben Babbani, and my mother’s name was Mercada. We grew up in a very stable household. My sisters were — I don’t know what quite a bit older is anymore, but there’s three and a half years between Lee and I, and they all seemed to have married younger, so I was left in the household when I was 16 years old. My mother and father, particularly my father, did a lot of spoiling. It was a family with a lot of love and a lot of disagreements, four girls. Did a lot of babysitting as a younger sister.

Frankel: Let me go back to your parents. Where did they come from?
PEIZNER: My mother and father came from Istanbul, Turkey. I wish I could tell you a lot about them. I know very little of my father’s background. My mother was a French teacher in Istanbul. Her biological mother passed away, and she was brought up by a stepmother who she cared very deeply for. My father’s family — this is one of the regrets that we all have. We just didn’t ask enough questions. My father died fairly young. He came with his two brothers, the three of them. They would have had to go into the army.

Frankel: When was that? World War I?
PEIZNER: No, in the revolution there [the Turkish War of Independence, 1919-23]. They were forcing them to go into the army. This is what I recall, that they left for those reasons and they were coming here. I thought about it. I knew you were going to ask me this. I don’t know who sponsored my father, but I do know that there was a cousin who sponsored my mother, in Seattle. They had to have sponsors at the time, as I recall.

Frankel: What were the names of your father’s two brothers?
PEIZNER: Sam was the youngest one, and the oldest one was Jack.

Frankel: So they came together?
PEIZNER: They came together, as far as I’m aware of anyhow.

Frankel: Do you recall an approximate date?
PEIZNER: I wish I could. First of all, I was the youngest in the family, and there just wasn’t that kind of discussion. And again, we made a very big mistake by not asking enough questions.

Frankel: Did your father leave his parents behind? Were they still alive?
PEIZNER: Yes. I know nothing of his parents, nothing. He had two sisters. When they came, before or after, don’t ask me, but he had two sisters who lived in New York. Somehow or other they must have been in contact with one another. When I was nine years old my uncle and my father packed us all up, and we drove to New York to visit them. They thought we were cowboys. One aunt had no children. The other aunt had three sons, and we kept in very close contact with the middle son. Through the years he came back and forth to Portland to visit, loved it here. His home was Brooklyn, so need I say more?

Frankel: What were the names of your two aunts?
PEIZNER: One was Rebecca. Don’t ask me what the other one was. It was the youngest sister with the three sons that we were more involved with. She lived in a different part of New York. She’s not vivid in my mind for some reason.

Frankel: That was Rebecca?
PEIZNER: No, Rebecca was the one that we were . . .

Frankel: With the three sons?
PEIZNER: I don’t know if Lee remembers her name or not. Did you ever interview Benji?

Frankel: Who’s Benji?
PEIZNER: Benji [Phelan?].

Frankel: Nope.
PEIZNER: That’s who you should have interviewed. You know Jeanette, don’t you?

Frankel: Yes.
PEIZNER: You know Benji passed away.

Frankel: Right.
PEIZNER: He tried very hard to research. He was my sister’s only son, and when my sister passed away, he got a lot of documents that I had no access to and a little bit more information. He really looked into it. Maybe it’s a lack of interest because I was the youngest one, but my life was surrounded by Ashkenazi Jews. I was just talking to a friend of mine. There were no Sephardic girls my age, or barely none, so my life was not like my sisters’. My sisters’ lives were more involved in the Sephardic. My best friend is Rosalie Goodman. She’s still my best friend. I never thought that she was Ashkenazi and I was Sephardic. We just never . . .

Frankel: Right. So your parents also never told stories about life in Turkey?
PEIZNER: My father didn’t. My father was surrounded by four girls, so he was a very quiet man [laughs]. He had not too much choice, that I can recall anyhow. My mother did. She was very fond, like I said, of her stepmother. It’s funny the little things you remember. When she got the news that her stepmother had passed away, she was really, truly brokenhearted. She had two brothers. One brother was killed in the war. Don’t ask me dates because I can’t tell you that.

Frankel: Was that back in . . .
PEIZNER: Back in Istanbul, Turkey. The other brother, somehow or other they kept in contact, and at the age of — I think my mother must have been maybe in her early 60s, she and my aunt and uncle and another uncle decided that they wanted to go to Turkey, and they couldn’t go unless they became citizens of the United States. They were not citizens at that time.

Frankel: How long had they lived here already?
PEIZNER: For a long time. I guess they didn’t feel the need to become citizens. But they all went to school at that time, and the four of them became citizens, traveled to Istanbul and saw their immediate families. And then, a couple years after that, my uncle, her brother, decided to come to Portland to visit us. All of this is kind of fuzzy. My sisters are older, so they really remembered more. I guess you couldn’t take much money out of Turkey at the time, so my mother and father had to send money to them even though he [the uncle] had a leather factory there. But in order for him to come, she had to send money. So we met him and enjoyed knowing him.

Frankel: Was he married with children?
PEIZNER: He was married. One of the years that I went to Israel, I don’t remember if it was after my mother passed away — somewhere along the line there was a disconnect. Evidently, her brother had passed away and there were two remaining children. Even my cousin, who tried very hard to keep in contact, couldn’t keep in contact. I don’t know whether there was a marriage problem or whether something happened to them. I really don’t know. But one of the times I was in Israel, I got my daughter-in-law to try [to make contact] because we had heard that the son had moved to Israel. She went through that telephone book and called every person that we thought [might be related] and couldn’t find him. So we just have lost contact with them.

Frankel: What was your mother’s maiden name?
PEIZNER: Levy.

Frankel: It’s a common name.
PEIZNER: Yes, very common.

Frankel: So when your mother returned at the age of 60, her stepmother was no longer alive?
PEIZNER: No. She went to visit her brother.

Frankel: Was her family well-to-do in Turkey?
PEIZNER: I think that they were average. No, I don’t think that they were well-to-do. Somehow or other she became a French teacher. She never went into detail how that happened. I can’t tell you. I wish I could.

Frankel: Did she write back and forth to her parents after she had come here? Do you remember letters coming?
PEIZNER: She must have because there was some sort of contact. She didn’t talk about it that often. I can’t tell you what the reason is for all this. To my knowledge it was a good situation. It must have just been separation. Just you’re there and we’re here. It’s just fuzzy. When her mother passed away, I was six or seven years old. I wasn’t a teenager.

Frankel: Did your parents know each other in Turkey?
PEIZNER: No. It was a fixed marriage.

Frankel: Who arranged? Relatives?
PEIZNER: I think it was his cousin that was the sponsor. Turned out to be a very good marriage. To my knowledge anyhow, their life was good. My father, for a living, he had a fish market. He wasn’t rich, but we weren’t poor. During the Depression, I personally, as the youngest one in the family, do not ever remember suffering. I don’t remember my father ever being out of work. We were a stable, average family.

Frankel: Did your father own the fish market?
PEIZNER: Yes.

Frankel: Where was it located?
PEIZNER: It was on Second Street. There was the market where the Menashes were and Benvenistes. Ezra Menashe had a meat stand, my father had a fish stand, and there was a fruit stand there. It was either Second or Fourth, in that area down there.

Frankel: That was part of South Portland?
PEIZNER: Yes.

Frankel: So those were three Sephardic families: Menashe, Benveniste, and Babbani.
PEIZNER: There was also Levys. And the Mayos. They moved.

Frankel: Was that also a Sephardic family?
PEIZNER: Yes.

Frankel: So the Sephardic had their businesses in one area?
PEIZNER: They were a tight community. They interacted with one another; their social lives were around each other. They each expanded as time went on. A couple of families moved to California because they had extended families there. I remember it as being a happy time. They would play cards on a Saturday night or get together, and the usual arguments I guess, disagreements or whatever.

Frankel: Where did you live?
PEIZNER: We lived on Broadway.

Frankel: Broadway and . . .?
PEIZNER: Southwest Broadway. You know where Shattuck School is? We used to walk there.

Frankel: And that’s where you went to school?
PEIZNER: That’s where we went to school.

Frankel: And what language was spoken at home?
PEIZNER: I knew that would be a question [laughs]. By the time they got to me, the only time they would speak in Ladino is because they didn’t want me to know something, but they spoke in English.

Frankel: To each other?
PEIZNER: To each other.

Frankel: Your parents?
PEIZNER: They spoke in Ladino to each other, but to me they spoke in English.

Frankel: So you heard Ladino.
PEIZNER: I heard Ladino. My oldest sister, they spoke to her in Ladino, so she could speak it much better than I. When they got to me it was all in English, other than the two of them and their interactions, and interactions with their families and friends.

Frankel: Did you pick it up then?
PEIZNER: A little bit. I understand it, but don’t ask me the words.

Frankel: So your parents’ social life, did it include Ashkenazi families as well?
PEIZNER: No, it didn’t really. Even though Rosalie’s — but I think their lifestyle was such that they didn’t interact as well. First of all, everybody belonged to different synagogues, so that in itself tells some sort of a tale I guess. They were friendly, but they did not interact socially.

Frankel: So your parents were active at Ahavath Achim?
PEIZNER: Yes. My father was one of the builders.

Frankel: Of the old . . .?
PEIZNER: Of the old synagogue.

Frankel: Did you girls go to services?
PEIZNER: Another question. My father died when he was 68. He did not insist that we go to services. My mother went only on High Holidays. She interacted a little bit; she was a part of the Sisterhood. But after my father passed away she never went again, to any extent anyhow.

Frankel: And you?
PEIZNER: And so we didn’t either. I was just telling this friend of mine that lives here, as a young girl, as a young teenager, we went from synagogue to synagogue. If I sat down at that synagogue for more than 10 minutes I was lucky. I think the fact that we were girls, my mother and father never really thought of it as being that important. To my mother, family, dinner, food, making sure that we were together on Friday nights, that was more important to her.

Frankel: Did your mother keep a kosher home?
PEIZNER: Yes, she did.

Frankel: How religious was your family? Did they light candles?
PEIZNER: They lit candles on Friday night. My father went to synagogue Friday night, sometimes on Saturday mornings.

Frankel: He didn’t work?
PEIZNER: He had to retire after a while because he’d had a heart attack, and the doctor told him that he needed to retire, and he did. They observed all the holidays. I guess you would call them Orthodox, but what’s Orthodox now? How does it apply to children?

Frankel: I think one big distinction is if you drive on Shabbat.
PEIZNER: Right. Well, they didn’t anyhow because everything was in walking distance. I had no religious background. By the time they got to me, they didn’t see any need for me to go to Sunday school.

Frankel: Did Ahavath Achim provide Sunday school?
PEIZNER: No. That was another problem. They didn’t provide Sunday school. There were no activities there.

Frankel: Not for boys or girls?
PEIZNER: My uncle had a son and a daughter. He sent him to Seattle to learn. But there was nothing for us. Lee went to Sunday school for a year or two.

Frankel: At which synagogue?
PEIZNER: At Neveh Zedek, I believe, but didn’t continue on that I can recall, and so our religious background really came from our home. So what does that make us?

Frankel: How far did your father’s education go?
PEIZNER: I don’t think very far. I don’t know about his education. He never shared it with us. He certainly came to this country and learned the language very quickly, was able to make a living here. He never shared that.

Frankel: Did he get a religious education? Did he study . . .?
PEIZNER: He must have because he was very fluent in Ladino and . . .

Frankel: What about your mother? Was she able to read from a Hebrew prayer book?
PEIZNER: I don’t really remember her being able to read, sitting in synagogue for any length of time. That’s a good question. I should ask Lee that. I do not have that answer.

Frankel: Clearly no tutors were hired to teach you?
PEIZNER: No. I don’t think they felt the need for girls to — there were no bat mitzvahs at the time. Like I say, my mother was religious in the form of observing, making sure that the household was proper. To my knowledge, even after my father passed away, her dedication to making sure that her family stayed together and her Friday night dinners and her food was important to us. And that’s where we learned, or I did anyhow.

Frankel: Did you ever feel pressure growing up that your parents would want you to marry a Sephardic?
PEIZNER: That’s another very good question. My oldest sister was the first to not marry a Sephardic. My mother became very ill. She thought that it would really be very harmful, only because she wasn’t sure whether she understood the Ashkenazi culture. After they met, and after they got married, that no longer was a problem at all. The thought of it probably was more harmful than anything, Then when Joy got married, she married a man who only was half Sephardic, and his mother was the one who was Ashkenazi, so his knowledge — and his father died very young. Lee married an Ashkenazi. When it came down to me, my mother could have cared less. Just get married.

Frankel: And the flip side, how did the Ashkenazi family perceive marriage with a Sephardic?
PEIZNER: I don’t think there was an ounce of a problem. We were very tight as sisters. We all got along very well as we grew older and married. Everybody had their own little families, and it was really never a problem.

Frankel: Also, sometimes when you have immigrant parents, the children feel some kind of tension, wanting to become Americans and yet living in a home where parents have accents.
PEIZNER: Never a problem. We just knew we were from a Sephardic family, never had any problems.

Frankel: Can you describe a Friday night at your table growing up?
PEIZNER: Yes. My father came home from Friday-night services. We ate when he came home, which must have been late at the time because I think they would never conduct the service until sundown. We all had to eat there with them. My mother had her brisket or chicken, one or the other. Not soup like the Ashkenazi, but we had fish with lemon sauce. That was our starter.

Frankel: What type of fish?
PEIZNER: It was usually salmon that she made, with tomato sauce or with lemon. Very delicious. Even though at the time I never thought any of her food was very delicious.

Frankel: Really.
PEIZNER: Yes, when it’s there it never tastes good. It only tastes good as you get older and realize what you miss and how delicious her cooking was. She was really, as most of the Sephardic women were, gourmet cooks, unbeknownst to themselves. But as a young person, when you ate it all the time, it never tasted as good. The other person’s food always tasted a lot better.

Frankel: So would it be just you, or were there other extended family members in town?
PEIZNER: All my sisters lived in Portland. As long as they were here, they were there for Friday-night dinner. I can’t really recall ever my mother and father and I just having a Friday-night dinner by ourselves when they got married. Their extended families, to my knowledge, never had that sort of a situation. So it was never really a problem that I recall anyhow.

Frankel: Do you have memories of World War II?
PEIZNER: Not a lot. I was 13, 14 when the war was over. The bonds, making sure that we all bought bonds. Now what kind of memory should I have? I was not involved with servicemen because I was too young, of course.

Frankel: And of what was happening to the Jews in Europe?
PEIZNER: Yes, probably not as aware as I could have been.

Frankel: Did you know any young men who were serving in the Army?
PEIZNER: No, I really didn’t. My cousin went into the Navy, became a pilot, but my age group was not involved in that. My oldest sister did not, but my two other sisters married servicemen, and that was the extent of that.

Frankel: What about Japanese classmates? Did you have any Japanese . . .?
PEIZNER: We knew very much about that, yes. We had a diverse group of people. I had no friends that were put into any of the camps that I can recall.

Frankel: Did you have classmates who continued to come?
PEIZNER: That is not vivid in my mind, so that must not have been a trauma or a situation that I can remember, other than realizing what was going on and knowing that they were put in camps.

Frankel: After Shattuck, did you go to Lincoln?
PEIZNER: No, I did not go to Lincoln. I went to Commerce.

Frankel: Where was that?
PEIZNER: It’s called Cleveland now.

Frankel: Cleveland High School?
PEIZNER: Yes, that was Commerce. My oldest sister went there, and Lee went there. We had to bus there. It was a commercial school, so you learned typing and bookkeeping and shorthand. I probably should have gone to Lincoln. Joy went to Lincoln. I did not.

Frankel: Was there a reason?
PEIZNER: Because my sisters went there and because Rosalie went there [laughs].

Frankel: She was already your friend?
PEIZNER: Rosalie? Rosalie’s been my friend since we were four and five years old. I can show you a picture of us. We’ve been friends for just years and years and years. That’s why I say I never thought of Sephardic or Ashkenazi. We were friends. We never separated the two.

Frankel: Would you eat at her house?
PEIZNER: Absolutely. In fact, I used to yearn for it because it was such a different kind of food than we had.

Frankel: Would she eat at your house?
PEIZNER: Absolutely. Every Saturday night we’d have roast beef sandwiches. My father spoiled me, as I told you, and he would bring home a chocolate cake for me every Saturday morning, and that’s what we had. We had good memories.

Frankel: So at what age did you switch to Commerce School? Shattuck went up to what grade?
PEIZNER: The eighth grade.

Frankel: I see. So after eighth grade you went to Commerce?
PEIZNER: To Commerce, yes.

Frankel: Were you involved in BBYO [B’nai B’rith Youth Organization].
PEIZNER: Yes, I was involved with [Qued?], they called it. It was a girl’s organization.

Frankel: Connected to BBYO, or separate?
PEIZNER: No, it was separate. I’m not even sure they had BBYO when we were. It was Qued and . . .

Frankel: Is that an acronym?
PEIZNER: No.

Frankel: Was it a Jewish organization?
PEIZNER: It was a Jewish organization.

Frankel: For girls only?
PEIZNER: There was Qued, and there was the other one that my sister belonged to.

Frankel: Was it boys and girls or just girls?
PEIZNER: No, just girls.

Frankel: What type of activities did you have?
PEIZNER: It was social. I’m trying to think. Did we raise money for Israel when we belonged to it? We might have had a few fundraisers, but it was really a social thing.

Frankel: We talked about Ahavath Achim. Did the synagogue have a rabbi?
PEIZNER: No.

Frankel: Never?
PEIZNER: Not a paid rabbi. They brought in a rabbi from Seattle for the High Holidays. As a matter of fact, that’s what my mother did when I got married. She wanted us to get married in the Sephardic synagogue, so she paid a rabbi from Seattle to come down and marry us.

Frankel: Do you remember his name?
PEIZNER: Yes.

Frankel: Was it Maimon?
PEIZNER: Yes. You know the name.

Frankel: Was it the same Maimon who was also a mohel?
PEIZNER: Yes. He came for all three of my children’s circumcisions.

Frankel: Right. So who would lead the services? Lay people?
PEIZNER: Yes.

Frankel: Do you recall the famous move of the synagogue?
PEIZNER: I do.

Frankel: Were you actually present?
PEIZNER: No, I didn’t see it, but I do recall there were a lot of tyrannical things that happened at that time.

Frankel: Such as?
PEIZNER: I’m sure you’ve heard this from my sisters or from other people. When my father passed away, my mother had donated the memorial plaque in his name and — I guess I’m skipping a little bit. When they built the new synagogue, there was a lot of controversy as to whether they would put the one that my mother donated or get another one. There was a lot of discussion about it, and they did not put the one that my mother donated. There were a lot of hard feelings at that time. We were already married. All of us were married and involved.

And that’s pretty much when I was separated from the Sephardic synagogue. First of all, they had nothing to offer my children. They had no rabbi, they had no Sunday school, and I wanted my children to have more of an education than I had, and so we decided to become members of Neveh Shalom. I know a lot of my friends and my sisters had this real strong Sephardic feeling. Don’t ask me why, but I don’t. I’m not sure if it’s because as a youngster I had maybe one Sephardic friend, and we must not have been that good of friends, because we never kept in close contact after she left, and yet Rosalie and I have been friends forever.

Frankel: So were they able to rescue much from the synagogue when they moved?
PEIZNER: Not too much.

Frankel: So was that the reason they had to replace the memorial plaque?
PEIZNER: No, I think the whole synagogue was built in a whole different manner, and they wanted it to have a different look to it. There was a certain group that just didn’t want it. There was a lot of debating over it. They voted on it, and they voted against it.

Frankel: What do you recall from South Portland? Can you describe the area with the stores and everything?
PEIZNER: I’m not as good at it as some people are. We walked to everything. We walked to the Lincoln Theater, to the delis.

Frankel: Which delis were there?
PEIZNER: I don’t even remember the name of that one. I wish I had Joanne here. Some people remember everything, absolutely everything. In my mind, I remember the most outstanding things. My mother taking me to the Lincoln Theater. She loved the movies. My father wouldn’t go, so she’d drag me on a Sunday afternoon. Exactly where it was located, I can’t tell you. I just remember some of the most outstanding things. I can’t tell you why, but that’s the way my mind works I guess.

Frankel: What are some of the things that you do remember?
PEIZNER: I remember my father listening to baseball until my mother dragged me to the movies because she couldn’t stand it any longer. I also have a son who absolutely loves baseball, so it must be in the genes somewhere. I remember my father playing pinnacle with his brothers and friends on Sunday afternoon as a recreation. Saturday was a rest day.

Frankel: Now, because the foods prepared by the Sephardic are so different, did you have no trouble finding the ingredients and products in the stores for the Sephardic types of food?
PEIZNER: No. Well, first of all, everything was vegetables. Everything was fresh; there was nothing canned. There were kosher meat markets, so that was not a problem. No.

Frankel: When we talk about Ashkenazi Jews, families who lived in South Portland, they were primarily from Eastern Europe, right?
PEIZNER: Yes.

Frankel: So did you have much contact with the German Jews who lived . . .?
PEIZNER: No, that I didn’t. Up until the time I grew up, I didn’t even realize that there was such a tremendous distinction between the German Jews and the . . .

Frankel: Eastern European.
PEIZNER: Right. Going to Rabbi’s classes was very enlightening to me. They evidently really ruled our city.

Frankel: Because they had more money?
PEIZNER: Because they had more money. Which is a good thing as far as I’m concerned. They developed it.

Frankel: They also had come earlier.
PEIZNER: They came earlier, that’s right.

Frankel: How about describing a Passover seder at your house?
PEIZNER: Passover seder was so lengthy that I never, ever got to the dinner part of it. I was a child, and 90% of the time I was sleeping by the time they ever got to dinner. It went on and on and on. That’s my only description of Passover as a young girl.

Frankel: Were you bored?
PEIZNER: I must have been if I was asleep [laughs].

Frankel: How big . . .?
PEIZNER: It was extended family, with our family and my uncle, my father’s oldest brother. His younger brother usually spent it with his wife’s family, even though they were all intertwined like that. Like I say, I was asleep by the time dinner came along. After my father passed away, my uncle moved to Seattle, and my sisters were married, so then it became more of just our family.

Frankel: Still a Sephardic style?
PEIZNER: I’m trying to think of who conducted it after my — it was half and half. My sister’s husband, Max, was a wonderful man, but his religious background wasn’t tremendous. They just kind of winged it, you might say.

Frankel: When your father still led the service, in what language did he read the Haggadah?
PEIZNER: In Ladino.

Frankel: And you were able to follow?
PEIZNER: As much as we could.

Frankel: Do you remember songs? Any of the melodies?
PEIZNER: I remember [inaudible word] would tell me about them, but don’t ask me to sing them. That’s not my thing.

Frankel: Now also, growing up, were there any heirlooms in the household that your mother had brought from Turkey or your father had brought from Turkey?
PEIZNER: Really not a lot.

Frankel: But something. Anything?
PEIZNER: I have a few things here, but nothing that — my sister got most of it because my mother ended up living with my sister.

Frankel: Which sister?
PEIZNER: My older sister. When my father passed away, my mother really — she was completely dependent on my father and knew nothing, even to go get milk at a grocery store. My father . . .

Frankel: Did she not speak English?
PEIZNER: Yes, she spoke English very well. My father spoiled her is what it amounted to, and she was dependent on him. So when he passed away my sisters needed to come into the house, and it ended up that my older sister lived with us for a while, and then my mother ended up living with my older sister for the rest of her years. Whatever was left, Jean got all of it, and she deserved it. We all took care of my mother, but in a different manner.

Frankel: Your mother, who had been a French teacher, did she ever work after she came here?
PEIZNER: No. I don’t even know whether she actually had a degree or not. She would sing little French songs to us, but whether she actually had that degree, she never shared that with us and we never asked. It was a different time, Sylvia, it really was.

Frankel: So how long did she live in Seattle?
PEIZNER: No, she didn’t live in Seattle at all. The relative, the sponsor, was a Seattle person. She married my father immediately. Now again, they got a lot of things and I didn’t. My sister Jean has a beautiful picture of my mother and father’s wedding. You probably don’t recall it, but she had it hanging in her den. But I never got that. My mother and father had beautiful pictures of my two sisters as small children. When they got to me and Lee, they never did. I hope this doesn’t make me sound like I’m resentful because I’m really not. I think it’s a joke really; it’s funny. It’s a normal thing to happen. By the time you came along, who cared? And I can understand that. I don’t mean that literally. They were very loving, trust me when I tell you, and really spoiled me.

Frankel: How about Israel? Growing up, were your parents Zionists?
PEIZNER: No. Israel was not a part of our life at all. Israel did not become a part of my life — well, I was a member of Hadassah and worked for Hadassah for a lot of years. I have a picture. I’m not sure that you’d be interested in it or not.

Frankel: Later. From Hadassah?
PEIZNER: Yes. When my children were small, I was involved with Hadassah. But until Steven went there — I knew the needs of Israel and what we had to work for and why we had to work it, but until Steven moved there, really none of it became real to me until that happened.

Frankel: Do you have memories, though, when Israel became an independent state in 1948?
PEIZNER: Sure. I do. Celebrations through Hadassah, and the city, and what a wonderful thing it was.

Frankel: So after Commerce School — was it a four-year program?
PEIZNER: Yes.

Frankel: What did you do?
PEIZNER: I went to work as a bookkeeper at Lyman Slack Motors. I was involved with my husband at the time. He went into the Army. It was the Korean War at that time.

Frankel: Before you were married?
PEIZNER: Yes. I worked for this company for a year, and then my husband was stationed in New Jersey and I had relatives there, so I quit the job and decided to go visit my husband — not my husband then —and then came back and went to work again until he was . . .

Frankel: For a different company?
PEIZNER: Yes, for a different company. I went to work for an insurance company. He was in the service for four years, and . . .

Frankel: Was he ever shipped over to Korea?
PEIZNER: No, the way he describes it, half of his unit went to Korea and the other half went to Germany. He was lucky and went to Germany. So he was here in the States for a year or two years in school, and in Germany and Czechoslovakia for two years.

Frankel: What did he do there?
PEIZNER: He was a — something to do with signals and Morse Code,

Frankel: So intelligence?
PEIZNER: Intelligence, in that area. He went to school in New Jersey for a year and went to Germany after that.

Frankel: So the year in New Jersey, was that part of his Army training?
PEIZNER: Yes.

Frankel: Had he gone to college before then?
PEIZNER: Yes, he went for a couple of years. But at the time he was either going to enlist or they were going to draft him, and he decided to enlist thinking that would have been a better thing for him. He would have gotten what he wanted more. So he enlisted instead. He was in school for a couple of years and then went into the Army and came back. We reunited, and he went back to school at Portland State for a year and we got married. He had thought he wanted to be an engineer, took engineering classes all along, but we got married and he needed a job, so one thing led to another and he ended up being in the furniture business.

Frankel: Was that a family business?
PEIZNER: No.

Frankel: He started it on his own?
PEIZNER: The first week we were married, somehow or other the job that he had . . .

Frankel: Fizzled out?
PEIZNER: Anyhow, he went to the unemployment line, and a man pulled him out of the line and said, “Do you want to go to work?” It happened to be a Jewish man, Hy Jackson. He went to work for a furniture store and started as just being on the truck, and then one thing led to another and he ended up owning this store and then ended up selling this store and became an independent contractor.

Frankel: Did your husband grow up in Portland?
PEIZNER: Yes.

Frankel: How did you meet?
PEIZNER: At the Jewish Community Center. We knew each other for a long . . .

Frankel: So you were involved with the Jewish Community Center?
PEIZNER: Yes.

Frankel: Now when you say that you didn’t get a Jewish education, was the Neighborhood House still active in offering classes?
PEIZNER: We never went to the Neighborhood House. I went to the Jewish Community Center.

Frankel: What did the Jewish Community Center offer?
PEIZNER: The Jewish Community Center offered a swimming pool, they offered social things, That’s where we interacted with one another.

Frankel: But the JCC didn’t offer any education?
PEIZNER: No, that wasn’t really what they were set up to do.

Frankel: Right. But was it not common for the Sephardic families to send their kids to the Neighborhood House for . . .?
PEIZNER: I don’t know why we never went to the Neighborhood House. It must not have had anything to offer us. I think Rich went to the Neighborhood House because he lived closer to it. I don’t know whether it was playing basketball or swimming, but I don’t even think they had a swimming pool. The Jewish Community Center had more to offer us.

Frankel: Were your parents involved? Your father was involved with Ahavath Achim.
PEIZNER: Right.

Frankel: Was your mother involved with any . . .?
PEIZNER: No, not really.

Frankel: But Sisterhood you said she was also involved with?
PEIZNER: Well, yes. I remember her knitting for the Red Cross, this group of women who got together all the time. But out of that area, no.

Frankel: Do you remember taking trips during the summer? What would you do?
PEIZNER: Our summer vacations were at Lincoln City.

Frankel: You would go to Lincoln City?
PEIZNER: My father would pack us up and we’d go there for two weeks and love every minute of it.

Frankel: Where would you stay?
PEIZNER: We stayed in Lincoln City.

Frankel: Would you rent a place?
PEIZNER: Yes, we would rent a place. My father would commute, or we were by ourselves, My uncle was there. That was our summer vacations.

Frankel: So how did your sisters meet their partners?
PEIZNER: Jean worked at the Jewish Community Center and met Max there. Joy, how did she ever meet Izzy? Through the service I think. I don’t know whether they met at the Jewish Community Center. And I think Lee met Morrie at the Jewish Community Center as well. Marvelous people, really wonderful men.

Frankel: And they all were from Portland?
PEIZNER: All from Portland. Pretty unusual, I guess. Never any of us ever moved out. We should have moved away or done something, but we never did.

Frankel: Did all your sisters get married at Ahavath Achim?
PEIZNER: Yes.

Frankel: With the same rabbi?
PEIZNER: Yes, I’m sure that they did. I was 13 when Jean got married. I was 16 when Joy. Did Joy get married at Ahavath Achim? I can’t remember. I know where her reception was, but I’m not sure whether she got married with Rabbi Maimon or not. That’s a good question to ask.

Frankel: Having clearly lived in both the Sephardic and Ashkenazic worlds, are there some rituals at the Sephardic wedding which differed from the Ashkenazic wedding?
PEIZNER: I don’t think so. Not now.

Frankel: But your sisters’ weddings? Were there certain rituals that . . .?
PEIZNER: No, I don’t think so. We were all married under the huppah. Everybody’s married under the huppah now, and then too.

Frankel: And you break a glass?
PEIZNER: And we broke the glass, and . . .

Frankel: Drink wine?
PEIZNER: Drink the wine and do the circle thing. Is there anything else that I’m not recalling?

Frankel: What other Jewish holidays do you have memories of celebrating at home?
PEIZNER: We always celebrated Rosh Hashanah. We always celebrated Yom Kippur.

Frankel: What about Hanukkah and Purim, and the food?
PEIZNER: Always celebrated Hanukkah. We really celebrated it all. As the children grew up, we all got together and had our Hanukkah parties. And the food was the boyos and the bourekahs and the delicious goodies that everybody loves.

Frankel: Was that specific for a holiday? Like for Hanukkah we have latkes.
PEIZNER: For Hanukkah we didn’t have — my mother made this thing that my sister would probably tell you about. She didn’t do it all the time. But Rosh Hashanah was the boyos [Ladino for bun] . . .

Frankel: What are those?
PEIZNER: You mean you don’t know about our boyos? That wonderful, wonderful delicacy that Sephardic people make and that unfortunately I — I used to make them with my older sister, but when she passed away, my other sisters were really never that interested and so I never carried it through.

Frankel: But you have the recipe?
PEIZNER: I have the recipe. It’s in my hands. There’s two different boyos. There’s the kind with the yeast dough, the thin, wonderful . . .

Frankel: Like filo dough?
PEIZNER: Like a filo dough. I make filos, that I make, because it’s easy, and I learned how to do that, but my older sister really knew all the Sephardic dishes because my mother was there, so she learned to do all — my mother loved the food, and she loved the food, so she knew how to make them.

Frankel: Did your mother make an effort to teach all of you girls how to . . .?
PEIZNER: Not really. It was if you wanted to learn, you just learned how to make it. She made a fish with lemon sauce that I loved, so I used to drive her crazy until she taught me how to make it. She made a dish with artichokes that is so simple, but it’s not something that everybody makes, and I love them so I learned how to make them. You’ve heard of our biskochos. She used to come and make batches of it for me. I learned how to make them because she would come and make them for us. So there were certain things that I learned. But the wonderful boyos, like the Menashes, David and Debbie . . .

Frankel: They get together and make them?
PEIZNER: They get together and make them. I had all boys. I had no girls, so there was nobody. And my nieces, the one who shows an interest lives in San Francisco, and so that never came about. Joy’s family, because there were four of them, four kids . . .

Frankel: Can you name the . . .?
PEIZNER: My sister Joy.

Frankel: Yes. Can you name her children’s names?
PEIZNER: Yes. There’s Margaret Gottesman. Lewis is their second child; he lives in San Diego. And Barry Russell, and Betsy Russell.

Frankel: And three out of the four live here?
PEIZNER: Yes.

Frankel: So when you got married, was there a food adjustment for your husband? Did you continue to . . .?
PEIZNER: My husband loved my mother’s food. I don’t want to say it because it’s not very nice, but he really, really loved my mother’s food. I picked up on his foods too, so I taught my children both ways. I like chopped liver, so I learned how to make chopped liver. I don’t do it now, but I did when we were all together. I learned how to make gefilte fish. My older sister and I made gefilte fish together. What are some of the other? Chicken soup, but that was no big deal.

Frankel: Right. So would you say that your kitchen now is more Ashkenazic than Sephardic?
PEIZNER: Now it’s as easy as I can make it [laughs]. No, I really wouldn’t. If my family situation was different now, I would make them fish with tomato sauce because they love that — that’s a Sephardic dish — but I would also put on the table chopped liver because they loved chopped liver too. So it would be both ways.

Frankel: So besides the food, is there anything in your household that would identify you as a Sephardic Jew?
PEIZNER: [Long pause] I guess, unfortunately, it’s the food.

Frankel: Right. Your husband’s family, when did they come to this country?
PEIZNER: My mother-in-law was born in America, and my father-in-law was 13 years old.

Frankel: So they didn’t speak Yiddish at home?
PEIZNER: No. They may have spoken a little bit of it because I think my husband had a few memories of that, but their main language was English.

Frankel: Where did you live when you got married?
PEIZNER: We lived in an apartment on Park Street. One little, teeny-weeny apartment where the bed came out of the wall. And we did that for a year, then we moved to the Southeast side of town because my sisters lived on that side of town. And then my husband, the store that he was working for at the time, was on the Southeast side of town.

Frankel: So your kids all went to schools . . .
PEIZNER: My children went to grade school in the Southeast up until my oldest son was 12, when we moved to the West Side. We were always members of Neveh Shalom, so . . .

Frankel: Even when living on the East Side?
PEIZNER: Yes.

Frankel: Was Tifereth Israel still a shul on the East Side?
PEIZNER: I think so, yes.

Frankel: Do you have memories of that synagogue?
PEIZNER: No, I don’t because I really wasn’t involved in it at all.

Frankel: After you got married, did you continue to work?
PEIZNER: Yes, until I had my first child.

Frankel: So what are the names of all your children?
PEIZNER: My oldest son is Benjamin, Stephen is my middle son, and my youngest son was Danny, which we lost. We lost him 20-something years ago.

Frankel: What kind of Jewish household did you have? In other words, did you continue to keep kosher?
PEIZNER: No. We had pretty much the same kind of a household that I was brought up in, a little bit more modern. We tried for a long time to have Friday-night dinners, but my husband, when he started to have a different position, he had to work Friday nights, so that took care of that. I have to say that my oldest son feels very close to his religion and continues on to a certain degree, and of course Stephen doesn’t feel close to his religion, but he lives in Israel, so . . .

Frankel: Right. You mentioned that you sisters lived also in Southeast, so would you get together for Friday nights or holidays?
PEIZNER: We got together for holidays, three of us. My sister Joy had holidays with her side of the family because her mother-in-law was by herself, and that was how that worked.

Frankel: What kind of Jewish education did your children receive?
PEIZNER: They all went to Neveh Shalom and graduated from their religious school.

Frankel: Were they also involved with the Hebrew . . .?
PEIZNER: They all went to Hebrew School. They were all bar mitzvahed and went to Solomon Schechter. Started out at B’nai B’rith but ended up at Solomon Schechter. My oldest son still has friends from his camp years.

Frankel: Were they also involved in USY [United Synagogue Youth]?
PEIZNER: The rabbi was happy with USY. He wanted to keep everybody in USY. He didn’t want anybody to go to AZA at the time. They were pretty involved but still is a very good friend of Jeff’s. They’ve known each other since they were 13, 14.

Frankel: By that time when you got married, your friends were without distinction Ashkenazic mostly?
PEIZNER: All. Pretty much everybody.

Frankel: Right. And you say you were involved with Hadassah. Were there other Jewish organizations you were involved with?
PEIZNER: No, I really gave my energies to Hadassah. I never wanted to be president, but I was a fundraiser for a number of years. That’s a picture — do you know who Jerry Roth is?

Frankel: Yes, I do.
PEIZNER: Would you like to see this picture?

Frankel: Yes, after we finish so we don’t interrupt.
PEIZNER: Okay.

Frankel: So after your children were older, did you go back to work?
PEIZNER: After Danny was 14 years old, I went back to work on a part-time basis because everybody, all my friends, were working. My husband worked a lot of hours starting his own business. I applied to Nordstrom’s and worked at Nordstrom’s part time.

Frankel: As what?
PEIZNER: As a salesperson.

Frankel: Oh, really.
PEIZNER: I loved every minute of it. Absolutely loved every minute of it. I opened up the store in Washington Square, worked there for seven years, and then left for a couple of years and went downtown and worked downtown for another seven years. It was a great experience. When I say this, people look at me and think, “It’s not educational, it’s not — what’s so great?” They had some very interesting people that worked there. Educated women. It was a different type of an atmosphere because it was — you worked on commission. The people that ran it, you became involved with. It was, for me, a wonderful experience. I never worked full time, I only worked part time, which I was fortunate enough to be able to do.

Frankel: So after you got married, did Israel become more important? Had your husband been involved more with Zionists?
PEIZNER: I wish I could say he did, but my husband took another route. He really didn’t want my son to move there. He really didn’t. He tried very hard to encourage him to continue on to school. He wanted him to be here.

Frankel: But he didn’t succeed.
PEIZNER: He did not succeed, no.

Frankel: How did your son become interested, and where did that desire . . .?
PEIZNER: He became disenchanted with what was going on in the States at the time. He left high school — he graduated in three years. There was that drug scene.

Frankel: Was it the 60s?
PEIZNER: The 60s, yes. He had a young person’s experience with a girl, and he applied to Berkeley, and because he graduated in three years, there was one course that he was missing and didn’t — so he became disenchanted and somehow or other there was this — what was Mrs. Reinhart’s first name?

Frankel: Gussy.
PEIZNER: Pardon?

Frankel: Gussy.
PEIZNER: Gussy Reinhart. She was involved in Hadassah, and she — I don’t know how they got hold of one another, but she became involved in his first trip to Israel, and when he went there, he fell in love with the kibbutz idea. If you’d ask the rabbi, he’d remember this. When he first went there, I went with my sister — my husband wasn’t interested in going — on Rabbi’s first trip to Egypt.

Frankel: Was that before your son was in Israel?
PEIZNER: No, my son had already been there. We were on a tour with the rabbi, and he went off of the tour and took us up to the Golan where Stephen, that’s where the kibbutz was that he was on, so that we could see what he was doing. Anyhow, it was a wonderful experience, and he met his wife, and that tells the tale, doesn’t it?

Frankel: You were involved in Hadassah, and Hadassah is a strong Zionist organization, so . . .
PEIZNER: Did he pick up on it? I have no idea. I can’t tell you. The relationship with the son is not the same as — he might have picked up on it. He knew that I was involved as he was growing up. He could have. It could have been an influence on him. He’s never said one way or another.

Frankel: Had you been to Israel before your son was there?
PEIZNER: No. My first trip was when he was there for a year and the rabbi had organized this trip and my sister and I decided we would go together.

Frankel: And your other sons, were they influenced by Stephen?
PEIZNER: No. Stephen is the only one who picked up on it. Some things are meant to be. Your daughter, how did she pick up on it?

Frankel: We always talked about Israel and thinking about moving, so she grew up with that all the time. And I took them to Israel when they were little.

So a few other questions about the role of women. How has the role of women changed in your lifetime?

PEIZNER: [Long pause] we’ve become more independent. [Long pause] I really don’t know how to answer that. You mean women in general?

Frankel: In general.
PEIZNER: Women have become more of a person instead of a household name, you might say. It’s a wonderful thing. I, for one, have always been a person who’s been involved in involved in my family affairs and my husband’s affairs. My husband never kept anything from me. I was never one who didn’t know. If something were to have happened to him, I knew how to handle things. I was fortunate enough to know, to be involved, and he always kept me involved on a personal level. Ask me another question in that line. What did you mean by that, exactly?

Frankel: In terms of comparing your life with your mother’s life.
PEIZNER: There really isn’t any comparison. My mother, as I told you, was dependent and depended on us, and all of us became independent. We all worked at one time or the other, even after we were married and modernized — is that the word for it? It’s not a very good word, but . . .

Frankel: Independent, I guess.
PEIZNER: Independent more.

Frankel: Did your mother ever learn to drive?
PEIZNER: No.

Frankel: Did your father own a car?
PEIZNER: Yes, my father didn’t know how to drive either, though [laughs].

Frankel: So who drove the car?
PEIZNER: My uncle drove the car. Though it was my father’s car, my uncle drove it all the way to New York.

Frankel: Tell me about that trip to New York. Wasn’t it also the World’s Fair?
PEIZNER: Yes, it was during the World’s Fair.

Frankel: Tell me about it.
PEIZNER: It was a wonderful trip.

Frankel: How long did it take you?
PEIZNER: It was a three-week trip. My uncle did all the driving. I remember my cousin taking us to the Statue of Liberty and taking us to the — we went to the San Francisco World’s Fair.

Frankel: On another trip?
PEIZNER: On the other trip, yes. But I remember him taking us when the telephone was just becoming a telephone where you could talk . . .

Frankel: Without an operator?
PEIZNER: Without an operator. It was a really wonderful trip. This I will never forget. When they first took a look at us, they probably thought we were cowboys. Oregon? Where’s Oregon?

Frankel: Where did you stop on the way?
PEIZNER: It was all kosher.

Frankel: In New York.
PEIZNER: That’s right. And my aunt and uncle were kosher. We ate a lot of salami sandwiches.

Frankel: Would you camp on the way, or would you stay in hotels?
PEIZNER: We stayed in motels. I think it took us four days. I was nine at the time, and we had what was a called a chauffeur’s car where the — because there were six of us and two of them.

Frankel: And your uncle.
PEIZNER: There were four of us, my mother and father, and my uncle and aunt, and this car had seats that came out. Do you remember seeing those cars? That’s how we got there. This car.

Frankel: And did you stay in one place in New York, or did you drive around also?
PEIZNER: No, we stayed in one place. How did we all stay with my aunt? The uncles had already passed away. One uncle had; the other uncle hadn’t. They got us in someplace. I don’t remember the sleeping accommodations.

Frankel: That must have been quite a trip.
PEIZNER: It was quite a trip. It was unusual for people to have taken that kind of a trip at that time.

Frankel: Did you experience any antisemitism growing up here?
PEIZNER: I knew that you’d ask me that question too. I really didn’t. I don’t know whether this was an antisemitic situation or whether it was just me. My first couple of years in high school, I never felt like I belonged.

Frankel: That was at Commerce?
PEIZNER: That was at Commerce. If you talk to Rosalie, she’d say, “You’re crazy, there was nothing like that.” Whether it was because I was shy or I didn’t make friends easily, I can’t tell you if there was that feeling there. That was the only time I felt like, because there weren’t very many Jewish people there, that I wasn’t a part of something, the first couple of years that I was there. After a while it became a lot easier. To me high school was never an outstanding, wonderful experience.

Frankel: Did you socialize with many . . .?
PEIZNER: I had a couple of girlfriends, just a couple, who were Italian, and probably felt pretty much the same as I did.

Frankel: What other ethnic groups were there represented at the school?
PEIZNER: A few, but really mostly . . .

Frankel: American?
PEIZNER: Yes, exactly.

Frankel: And Commerce School was only for girls?
PEIZNER: No, it was co-ed. It was a commercial school.

Frankel: Right. Who do you recall were the Jewish leaders in this community when you were growing up? Any names that stand out?
PEIZNER: To me, they were the people who I was involved with in Hadassah. There were the Olds — Jack and Rose Olds — they were leaders in my eyes. They were very involved in Hadassah. There were — unfortunately, when I come home from the beach I’m really tired, and consequently it takes me a while to get my head together. I probably could be — the mattress people. They weren’t the Rosenbergs. The leaders in Hadassah. Mrs. Rosenberg was . . .

Frankel: Was that Toinette’s mother?
PEIZNER: Toinette’s mother. Involved in the community. But really, the women that were the most outstanding were those women — I’m trying to think of that woman’s name.

Frankel: What about among the rabbis? Are there any personalities that stand out?
PEIZNER: Rabbi Stampfer was just — he’d been our rabbi for — we’d been members of that synagogue 55, 56 years. We’ve been married 64, and we became members as soon as the children were able to go to Sunday school, and our youngest son went to the nursery school there. So that’s who we were involved with. He’s a wonderful, wonderful man.

Frankel: Was there a Federation also?
PEIZNER: I was never involved in the Federation. I really put most of my energies in Hadassah. I don’t know whether you knew about the Nearly-New Shop? I really started that.

Frankel: Really.
PEIZNER: Yes. I was chairman of that, did all the research as to where it was and started that.

Frankel: Is there anything else I left out that you would like to . . .?
PEIZNER: I think not. I wish I had more information. I know that you were really seeking more about our background. I keep telling my nieces, “Ask questions because if you don’t ask questions you’re never going to find out.” We just didn’t ask, even my sisters. I was the youngest one, and my father passed away when I was 20 years old, and at that age you’re kind of in another world anyhow. So we didn’t ask the right questions. It’s so important if you want to know about your background. In those years they were busy; they were newcomers to this country. They were busy raising their family. They didn’t share what they probably should have shared with us because they were — my mother had four children, four girls, and my father was out there working to feed us. Does that make sense to you?

Frankel: Absolutely.
PEIZNER: It was the way it was. The little bits and pieces that I can tell you — and I don’t know whether Jean or Joy ever told you any more about it, but we just didn’t ask enough questions, and it’s kind of sad because you’d like to know about your background.